[WIP #2] - Build Avalanche Liquid Staking for Wonderland

This is an interesting idea, but I will vote against it as written.

First, the payment/costs seem unreasonable.

This proposal would pay a Dev team $3 million dollars for a piece of code work plus up to $3 million dollars in bonuses. It would also provide a PERMANENT cut of revenue. Depending on which comparable you use, these royalty rates start either at the premium end or go beyond premium. Under these terms, Wonderland will not break even until $25m of revenue.

I also don’t understand the point about not allowing revenue to fall below 2.5% of the total staking reward. It would make sense if this was a joint initiative, but then I would expect the proposal to explain what the patterns will contribute. If the Devs are service providers to Wonderland, then isn’t $3m in guaranteed payments and up to $3m in bonuses enough? Particularly because the Devs don’t seem to have any responsibilities to help achieve the revenue goals?

Second, the proposal outlines an addressable market, but does not explain the risks involved with this expenditure. It provides an upside, but what are the risks to execution? I don’t mean fine print / legalistic risk statements, but rather what is the likelihood that this can work? What is required to be successful? What other obligations is the DAO going to have to undertake in order to penetrate the addressable market?

If the Wonderland team wants executive roles, then it’s fine with me. But if business proposals are put up for a vote, then they should have a balanced assessment of the risk/opportunity.

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terms should always be discussed up until the vote is over

Agreed. The last thing we want is for the dev team to let a project like this go dormant. Liquid staking on AVAX isn’t a “one and done” type of project.

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“If the Devs are service providers to Wonderland, then isn’t $3m in guaranteed payments and up to $3m in bonuses enough?”

Are you referring to the ongoing revenue share? If so, it’s because the liquid staking solution isn’t a “one and done” type of project, so we’ll need to keep the devs actively working on the project. The revenue share is to incentivize the devs to continue working on the project.

Yes, I think that it seems quite expensive for Wonderland and is not built on the right principles to align the respective interests of the Devs and participants in Wonderland.

I understand that platforms require some ongoing maintenance and development (although the proposal is not very clear on what would actually be built). However, there are two ways to do this.

First, if the Wonderland managers believe that this will generate a meaningful revenue flow, then some of it can be used to pay for further Dev services or even to add Devs to the Wonderland team. In such a situation, the liquid staking is maintained and evolves and Wonderland manages that process. This would be the standard approach to business and can often have advantages in cost-effectiveness and ability to control quality on the final product.

The second way is to partner with another team to jointly develop and maintain the service. However, in a partnership, you would expect that: a) the partners are bringing specific skills or capabilities to the table; and b) partners also make commitments to the project and have obligations under the collaboration. In this model, they would get a percentage of revenue and maybe some payment for services, but would only have one of those two as a primary benefit. If they get paid a lot upfront, then subsequent percentages are low. If they don’t take much upfront, then they might get a higher percentage for longer. I don’t see any justification for offering generous terms on both and making the percentage payments permanent. Percentages agreements end when the partnership stops or shortly thereafter.

This proposal seems to use a hybrid that does not appear to be to Wonderland’s advantage. There appears to be a very substantial upfront cost (particularly if you compare it with the launching costs of some of the other projects). The Dev team receives a permanent share of the revenues. The Dev team do not appear to have any obligations beyond shipping code and getting the site started. There are also do not appear to be any performance penalties or “skin-in-the-game” for the Dev team as this is presented.

Sometimes, you have to negotiate from a position of weakness in order to access a great opportunity. In this case, the numbers leftover for Wonderland don’t seem very large after you take out the Dev cost and commissions. Further, Wonderland would appear to bear the primary reputational risk if the liquid staking faces a code problem (e.g., hacks, failures, etc.).

A final variation would be that Wonderland invests into their project in which case Wonderland would be the one receiving a percentage of revenues rather than the other way around.

I like the ambitious thinking of the team. The proposed project is not particularly clear (since liquid staking is more of a topic to discuss than a description of a platform and service) and seems to have limited upside for Wonderland based on what is presented here. There is another post that points out potential profits are only a few million dollars after you crunch the numbers presented in the proposal. That seems like a small return for the risks and the opportunity costs of having a small team having to follow this project.

Man, I’m going to need you to read everything we’ve been talking about for over a week in the other forum post on this topic and in the DAO discord channel because a lot of what you’re talking about has been discussed already.

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100% agree. This feels EXCEPTIONALLY generous and not all that necessary…

Yeah, you’re right, I started reading and then thought “WTF? Didn’t we discuss this already?” and basically stopped reading and stumbled across your comment and went “OK, I am not going crazy”! :smiley:

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Where? I did read it and I see nothing about addressing Avalanche governance, subnets, or incentives tokenomics. There was supposed to be a technical design document. Where?

You are way too ahead of yourself. This will not be the last vote we take as a DAO related to the platform. As stated in the original proposal “governance over selected validators, fees, other parameters, and matters such as upgrades to the protocol will be carried out by DAO token holders.”

What incentive tokenomics?

The technical development started last year. The team doing this has been vetted by Dani. If you want to get involved as a dev, reach out to Sifu with your resume.

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100% agree on this.

Much more clarity is indeed needed before being able to sign off on this. Dev team needs to choose to either have more of a fixed compensation model or more of a variable one.

I personally believe that revenue sharing makes more sense, since it helps align incentives, but then would need to give up most (if not all) fixed compensation awards.

Assuming we just go for revenue sharing:

  • Revenue for Wonderland is expected to be $12.5M to $50M a year. Let’s take $20M.
  • Constant rev share of 15%
  • Yearly rev = $3M

How many devs are there? 3? 6? More than 500k/year seems outstanding comp. If you want to value it as a project, in just 5 years, with a 40% discount rate and 10% implied growth, this yields about $7M for the dev team, still an incredibly good deal, but more reasonable for the community.

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Link here

I don’t want to be part of it (as I said I am full-time employed in crypto). But I want more clarification on the technical design. A document was promised for 2021Q4. Where is it?

This proposal did not even exist in Q4 of 2021, where did you see it promises a document ?

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I have read through the RFC streams and know that there was discussion about contract terms, costs of DEVs, and a little about tracking. Respectfully, it does not change my view that the resulting proposal does not offer an attractive risk/reward for Wonderland and that the contract could be better structured either as a fee or as a partnership.

It seems that part of the underlying problem is that this is an activity that requires some degree of project management and subsequent protocol management. The current structure of Wonderland does not lend itself easily, so this contract structure seems to be the solution. I would argue that the time might be better spent focusing on other types of partnerships that do suit the type of involvement that Wonderland can manage effectively.

I recognize that you feel these comments cover some of the same ground as the RFC discussion and appreciate your time in reading them. The proposal has moved to a new stage and has invited comments, so I am offering views based on influences my choices in the vote.

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about when you say

Risk: $3 million of our $1.1 Billion Treasury. That’s 0.3% Even before BCGG it was less than 1%
Reward: Capturing enough market share to more than double the initial investment and become a bigger player on AVAX.

Likelihood of failure: I say low, but even if you say it’s “high”…
Impact of failure: Immaterial. We make close to $1 million a day on assets already deployed.

It doesn’t really require any project management. The dev team has been vetted by Dani and will be running the platform. So again…no idea what you’re talking about here.

Seems like you did not read the post above:

Breakdown of the timeline:

:white_check_mark: Research: Q3-Q4 2021
:white_check_mark: Initial technical specification: Q4 2021

And to be honest I am posting my concerns in good faith but reading this discussion over here seems like there is not honest intention for discussion. Just back and forward attacks. I don’t know who is involved in the actual project here but it would be helpful if they are identified here at least for purposes of these discussions.

They are an independent dev team selling us a product. Nowhere in your quote is documentation of their work promised. Dani. Go tweet Dani about. He’s fairly responsive to tweets.

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Seems like you assumed things that were not actually written.

Nothing wrong with being concerned. It would be nice to have the documentation you are talking about. That being said, saying something was promised when it wasn’t doesn’t sound like honest intention for discussion.

If it’s a misunderstanding, fair.
However, telling me I didn’t read something that doesn’t say what you said doesn’t fix anything.

I don’t understand. It’s right there: Initial technical specification by 2021Q4. This is the document I am looking for. And it has a green checkmark next to it. We are already in “protocol development”. At least this is what the first post in this thread seems to indicate. I checked all links and there is no hint of such a document.

You mean to say that this is an internal document for the dev team? So how are we suppose to evaluate the design? If you outsource a product to a 3rd party dev house either you have your own design or you evaluate the design they come up with.

Yes, the dev team started last year Before Wonderland got involved. They approached Dani and made the initial offer which was their first proposal post in General Discussion.

The team has been vetted by Daniele.

Sifu: We have plans to integrate this into the frog ecosystem and Dani strongly believes that it is well worth the expenditure to have this done properly by an experienced and competent team which he trusts.

Sifu:Yes, he was talking about our liquid staking proposal. Dani is a big fan and introduced us to the deal. He also completed his DD on the team.